Please Edumacate me...

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Please Edumacate me...

Postby KB9SXK » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:54 pm

So my bass walks in my office this morning and says, we need to upgrade the hammy repeater for them.

I say "OK'

He wants to know if there is such an animal as a P25 2m repeater that will also pass non dig traffic.

I think the answer is yes.

Anyone have insight? Anyone knoe of an ema that sponsers a p25 /normal repeater?

I think im getting a chubb......
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Postby KB9SXK » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:55 pm

Low Rent Edit.

I dont have a Bass. I have a Boss.
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Postby KB9SXK » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:06 pm

We have money to to buy an actual repeator and like 6 or so remote recieve..

We are replacing half ass.

What is out there comercialy?
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Postby akardam » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:30 pm

I'd say a Motorola Quantar or a Daniels Electronics P25 repeater. Both will support voted RX. Kenwood is supposedly releasing a P25 repeater but so far I haven't heard much on that.
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Postby KB9SXK » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:44 pm

I dont think i know enough to go there yet...

Good stuff so far...Keep it comming
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Postby kd7nvm » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:26 pm

isn't dstar the logical "p25" of the hammy world? I would think it would make sense to consider going that route for a ham repeater since it seems that there would be more consumer level (read cheap) dstar ham gear than expecting most ham types to switch to commercial rigs. Mixed mode would let it pass the analog stuff still.

i'm just starting to read up on dstar and by no means know what i'm talking about, more of a question than a suggestion.
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Postby mancow » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:58 pm

Where do you work, cause I need a job there.

Not only is there no money for something like that here, nobody would even know or care wtf 2 meters is.

must be nice
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Postby alex » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:20 pm

I believe the Quantar replacement is the GTR8000 or something like that. I'm not 100% on that, but I know it's G**8000.

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Postby ka8ypy » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:28 pm

kd7nvm wrote:isn't dstar the logical "p25" of the hammy world? I would think it would make sense to consider going that route for a ham repeater since it seems that there would be more consumer level (read cheap) dstar ham gear than expecting most ham types to switch to commercial rigs. Mixed mode would let it pass the analog stuff still.

i'm just starting to read up on dstar and by no means know what i'm talking about, more of a question than a suggestion.


D-Star is Digital only, no analog, no mixed mode.

Quantars, Quantro, Daniels P25 are my suggestions.
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Postby KB9SXK » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:32 pm

r0f wrote:APCO-25 is an identified standard. DSTAR may be somewhat mainstream in Asia, but it's kind of useless in North America unless you're one of the types who has already forked over the cash for DSTAR gear and wants something to whine about :P

Hammy rigs have wideband receive. Many hams use their hammy radios to monitor public safety (non-trunked). Wouldn't you like to monitor your P25 hammy repeater, and scan the P25 public safety channels as well? With a used Motorola P25 rig, you can. Pay $60 and get it recased like it just left the factory, and you've got yourself a winner.

DSTAR radios are built like Fisher Price walkie-talkies. Just my opinion of course, but when it comes to a digital standard, people should stick with a standard instead of putting up uncommon infrastructure like DSTAR.

Everyone is welcome to use whatever they want, but don't be surprised if you don't have a lot of people to speak with on a DSTAR machine. Put up something that supports P25, and the masses will come. P25 is becoming a lot more common with hammies these days than it was a year or two ago.

:wacker:


BINGO!

The issue with P25 vs DSTAR is funding. There are grant $ availible for P25 projects. Frequency is irelevent on a grant app.
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Postby tvsjr » Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:47 pm

Damn, that's funny... several states have purchased DSTAR infrastructure on grant. A demonstration locally of data (low-speed and high-speed) has been done for FEMA bigwigs, who are considering a large purchase. Oh, and the feds have largely backed off on this "everything-must-be-P25-for-grants" stuff... they realize that we poor volunteer departments aren't going to be able to maintain and expand a P25 infrastructure at this point. We have a hard time shelling out $600 for a Kenwood - much less $3K for an XTS5000.

I'm no DSTAR fanboi, but give credit where credit is due. I don't see 1200bps data on ASTRO voice channels... I don't see 128Kbps data available on the HSD channels... the feds are far more concerned with tactical "last-mile" solutions - they have the big-gun satellite setups for the long hops. Oh, and where's the commodity linking for P25 that DSTAR offers?

As for the quality of DSTAR radios: the IC91AD is surprisingly rugged, though the audio is typical hammy. The ID800 is quite well built and has a good front end in it - doesn't squawk in the RF sewer that is downtown Dallas. The ID-1 looks like and is built like a 3/4-scale Orion.

How about this - rather than piss and moan about formats, pick something that gets the job YOU need done in YOUR area? That may be DSTAR... might be P25... might be Provoice... might be narrowband analog... who knows. Pick what will work for YOU.
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Postby Mong » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:13 pm

tvsjr wrote:How about this - rather than piss and moan about formats, pick something that gets the job YOU need done in YOUR area? That may be DSTAR... might be P25... might be Provoice... might be narrowband analog... who knows. Pick what will work for YOU.




There you go confusing things with facts :baby:


If I had a P25 machine in my area, I'd use it. Instead I have a 440 D-star machine at 1300ft AGL, so that is what I might try instead. Just have to wait and see how well they have it working, but like all things it is a work in progress.
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Postby mr.syntrx » Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:26 am

akardam wrote:I'd say a Motorola Quantar or a Daniels Electronics P25 repeater. Both will support voted RX. Kenwood is supposedly releasing a P25 repeater but so far I haven't heard much on that.


Tait's machines are fantastic.
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Postby akardam » Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:21 am

mr.syntrx wrote:
akardam wrote:I'd say a Motorola Quantar or a Daniels Electronics P25 repeater. Both will support voted RX. Kenwood is supposedly releasing a P25 repeater but so far I haven't heard much on that.


Tait's machines are fantastic.

The more the merrier I always say.
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Postby KB9SXK » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:34 am

tvsjr wrote:Damn, that's funny... several states have purchased DSTAR infrastructure on grant. A demonstration locally of data (low-speed and high-speed) has been done for FEMA bigwigs, who are considering a large purchase. Oh, and the feds have largely backed off on this "everything-must-be-P25-for-grants" stuff...


I wish that true here....They are still stuck on the P25 thing. Would not let us spend a dime on our EDACS system.
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Postby n3jfw » Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:25 am

I don't have any links Shaun, but Terry isn't talking shit here.

The data side of dstar is getting some serious interest.
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Postby ka8ypy » Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:48 am

n3jfw wrote:I don't have any links Shaun, but Terry isn't talking shit here.

The data side of dstar is getting some serious interest.


I would have to echo this point. Several counties in Northern VA have applied for and recieved grants for among other thing a full on D-Star repeater ste-up (144, 440, 1.2GHz, 2.4 GHz) for ARES/RACES back-up/networked communications.
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Postby tvsjr » Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:10 pm

Did I mention that I had access to the *first* D-STAR system in the United States outside of Icom's hands? One of the local hams made inroads with them... they had DSTAR on the air about, oh, two years ago.

CDMA data for cell providers is great - unless a natural disaster has wiped out your infrastructure. 128Kbps over 1.2GHz @ 10watts provides for some pretty decent coverage, mobile-to-mobile... if you can stick a repeater in there with some elevation, you're golden. I believe the system here gets about 45 miles at 128Kbps with a site at around 800ft. AGL.

The feds are also very interested in the IVD aspect (integrated voice and data)... imagine doing building assessments following a tornado, and every transmission coming back having latitude and longitude right along with the voice? Makes all the mapping a whole lot easier.

YPY - DStar doesn't have any 2.4GHz modules. They do have a 10GHz site-to-site link that will be available at some point (there's been one in use here) but I don't think it's anywhere nearly ready for primetime.

As far as links, I'd check out IcomAmerica, their forums, and the forums here:
http://www.k5tit.org/forums/index.php
These are the guys I was talking about earlier... they know pretty much all there is to know about DSTAR.
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Postby KB9SXK » Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:57 pm

ka8ypy wrote:
n3jfw wrote:I don't have any links Shaun, but Terry isn't talking shit here.

The data side of dstar is getting some serious interest.


I would have to echo this point. Several counties in Northern VA have applied for and recieved grants for among other thing a full on D-Star repeater ste-up (144, 440, 1.2GHz, 2.4 GHz) for ARES/RACES back-up/networked communications.


Do you have any specific county names or contatcs?
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Postby ka8ypy » Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:57 pm

tvsjr wrote:Did I mention that I had access to the *first* D-STAR system in the United States outside of Icom's hands? One of the local hams made inroads with them... they had DSTAR on the air about, oh, two years ago.

CDMA data for cell providers is great - unless a natural disaster has wiped out your infrastructure. 128Kbps over 1.2GHz @ 10watts provides for some pretty decent coverage, mobile-to-mobile... if you can stick a repeater in there with some elevation, you're golden. I believe the system here gets about 45 miles at 128Kbps with a site at around 800ft. AGL.

The feds are also very interested in the IVD aspect (integrated voice and data)... imagine doing building assessments following a tornado, and every transmission coming back having latitude and longitude right along with the voice? Makes all the mapping a whole lot easier.

YPY - DStar doesn't have any 2.4GHz modules. They do have a 10GHz site-to-site link that will be available at some point (there's been one in use here) but I don't think it's anywhere nearly ready for primetime.

As far as links, I'd check out IcomAmerica, their forums, and the forums here:
http://www.k5tit.org/forums/index.php
These are the guys I was talking about earlier... they know pretty much all there is to know about DSTAR.


Sorry, brain shut down and hands kept typing....

We used D-Star 1.2 GHz dats to support the marine Corps Marathon last year for the first time. We used it to replace 9600 packet from the aid stations. Our packet lead and his son came up with a neat telnet program to take the info from the D-Star packet and configure it and load it directly into the runner welfare database being run by Navy Med Corps for the race. They had the ability at any momentto know the disposition of any and every runner that went into and out of the aid stations almost real time (Key in time at the aid station). In the past, there was a 5-10 minute lag time (key in at aid station to packet network and then rekey by two operators at main medical to their databease).

We even had enough bandwidth to run a backchannel IM network for the main amateur radio players/coordinators.
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Postby KB3JUV » Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:30 pm

r0f wrote:
tvsjr wrote:Damn, that's funny... several states have purchased DSTAR infrastructure on grant. A demonstration locally of data (low-speed and high-speed) has been done for FEMA bigwigs, who are considering a large purchase. Oh, and the feds have largely backed off on this "everything-must-be-P25-for-grants" stuff.

Got any links so we can read about this?


I'll agree, just look at the money that the feds are shelling out for OpenSky in PA and looks like NY as well. That isn't P25 is it? They have majorly relaxed.
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Postby KB9SXK » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:25 pm

Opensky can also do CAI.
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Postby KI4IHC » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:04 am

KB9SXK wrote:
ka8ypy wrote:
n3jfw wrote:I don't have any links Shaun, but Terry isn't talking shit here.

The data side of dstar is getting some serious interest.


I would have to echo this point. Several counties in Northern VA have applied for and recieved grants for among other thing a full on D-Star repeater ste-up (144, 440, 1.2GHz, 2.4 GHz) for ARES/RACES back-up/networked communications.


Do you have any specific county names or contatcs?


I know that when I was involved with ARES in Fairfax County, VA about a year ago, there was interest in dstar. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were on the list
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Postby ka8ypy » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:19 pm

KB9SXK wrote:
ka8ypy wrote:
n3jfw wrote:I don't have any links Shaun, but Terry isn't talking shit here.

The data side of dstar is getting some serious interest.


I would have to echo this point. Several counties in Northern VA have applied for and recieved grants for among other thing a full on D-Star repeater ste-up (144, 440, 1.2GHz, 2.4 GHz) for ARES/RACES back-up/networked communications.


Do you have any specific county names or contatcs?


I believe Faifax and Prince William Counties to start. Not sure if the one in Arlington County is sponsored by the county or the local club.
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Postby doownek » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:33 pm

tvsjr wrote:..... they have the big-gun satellite setups for the long hops.

Image

Although only two of those are public safety. I'm in the Suburban.
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Postby mr.syntrx » Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:38 am

tvsjr wrote:The feds are also very interested in the IVD aspect (integrated voice and data)... imagine doing building assessments following a tornado, and every transmission coming back having latitude and longitude right along with the voice? Makes all the mapping a whole lot easier.


P25 does that with bells on.
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Postby 007 » Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:18 am

mancow wrote:Where do you work, cause I need a job there.

Not only is there no money for something like that here, nobody would even know or care wtf 2 meters is.

must be nice


And I'd like to work there where no one cares and by the time you get up to 70, you're out of town all ready :baby:
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Postby tvsjr » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:48 am

mr.syntrx wrote:
tvsjr wrote:The feds are also very interested in the IVD aspect (integrated voice and data)... imagine doing building assessments following a tornado, and every transmission coming back having latitude and longitude right along with the voice? Makes all the mapping a whole lot easier.


P25 does that with bells on.


1200bps serial data *simultaneously*? 128Kbps HSD? Where?
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Postby mr.syntrx » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:08 am

You said nothing about 1200bps data.

P25 does GPS locations with transmissions, albeit at a slower rate, using the same arbitrary data field as Motorola soft ID.
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Postby Mong » Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:45 am

mr.syntrx wrote:You said nothing about 1200bps data.



He didn't have to, it's easy to look up the D-star gear and see the specs.


I know it's hard to think there is something that P25 can't do :baby:
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Postby tvsjr » Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:57 am

DSTAR is for amateur use - no encryption capabilities.
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Postby Mong » Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:47 am

r0f wrote:
tvsjr wrote:DSTAR is for amateur use - no encryption capabilities.

I thought it was some big fancy commercial standard used in Asia?



Sounds like



Sounds like



Sounds like you thought wrong :baby:
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Postby KB9SXK » Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 am

I read some BS that is origionaly for the the Chi Com military... :crack:
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Postby ka8ypy » Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:18 am

r0f wrote:
tvsjr wrote:DSTAR is for amateur use - no encryption capabilities.

I thought it was some big fancy commercial standard used in Asia?


Right now it is Amateur only, but apparently the Japanese Govt is looking into using it as their form of P25 and making more robust.

If you think about it, it's just another vocoder/dsp combination.

Upgrade the ROS to recognize encryption, add the baord, flip the switch and you are there.
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Postby Mong » Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:44 am

r0f wrote:
Seriously...I heard DSTAR is popular (maybe by a different name?) in Japan or something. I'll do some research later.




Well there was some talk of the Jap.Gov having enough changes done to make it what they want, so it's not true D-star.


Sorta like an ACU1000 is not true interoperability, but gives the illusion of such :baby:



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P.P.S. I know typing true like that is :xls:
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