Benefits of D-Star, or any other digtal system at that...

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Benefits of D-Star, or any other digtal system at that...

Post by KB3JUV » Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:39 pm

Hey guys,

Just recently I read the article in QST about D-Star. Looks like some pretty slick stuff. I've found some interests in it, but also found some things that might need some more reassurance.

First of all, I like a lot of the repeater linking features of D-Star. Looks like it could be of some major benefit if used in hardened facilities (I have access to our State of Delaware infrastructure) Since our State is fairly small, a repeater in each county (we only have three) might not be bad.

I also like the simultaneous data on the same repeaters. Would be very beneficial for Winlink 2000 which we've been pretty active with in the State.

I guess my questions are, I could link up three analog repeaters...basically doing the same thing. Any benefits on going digital only? I'm not sure of anyone right now in the State that actually has a D-Star radio. I know that now Kenwood is also jumping on the bandwagon, so I guess it won't be long before folks have many options.

Personally, I'd rather see a P25 VHF digital network. Same problem though, expensive equipment for a bunch of old timers who won't want to upgrade. Though the benefits of that is I can move it over the Public Safety frequencies after I get to the point that the hams piss me off so much...

:vestman:

Any people on here that can convince me to spend money on outfitting the EOC's with D-star capable rigs, or putting up some D-Star repeaters?

Regards...

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Post by Mong » Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:28 pm

Being able to move date is one thing D-star has going for it. There were talks of doing a wide area D-star network in SC for ARES type work, but I'm not sure how things are coming in that area.

D-star still needs work, the linking that Icom allows could use some better safeguards, and there are aftermarket equipment in the works. NC has several repeaters in the works, and one is already at 1300ft and it really temping me to get a mobile. Too bad it's on 440 instead of 2mtr, A 2200 with a board would only be $350osh and if I decided I didn;t like it I could sell the board and still have an analog :ham: rig.

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Post by mr.syntrx » Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:44 am

Seeing as Icom are aiming at wide area systems, I want to see a D-Star radio with voting scan. Getting used to it on public safety systems, then going to linked ham systems and having to change frequencies all the time gets old fast.

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Post by MattSR » Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:19 am

You spend a bit of time listening to the OFs?

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Post by mr.syntrx » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:26 am

I listen to the morse IDs, because nobody ever talks on this particular system. NSW cops are better value.

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Post by Mong » Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:21 am

mr.syntrx wrote:Seeing as Icom are aiming at wide area systems, I want to see a D-Star radio with voting scan. Getting used to it on public safety systems, then going to linked ham systems and having to change frequencies all the time gets old fast.


Well at 1300ft AGL, I think it might take awhile to drive out of distance. I think I can turn a knob after an hour :baby:

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Post by escomm » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:50 am

mr.syntrx wrote:Seeing as Icom are aiming at wide area systems, I want to see a D-Star radio with voting scan. Getting used to it on public safety systems, then going to linked ham systems and having to change frequencies all the time gets old fast.
idk, we have I-15 covered from Los Angeles to the Utah/Nevada border and you'd have to change channels all of 5 times in those 350 miles. Same thing with I-40 from Barstow to clear past Kingman. Hitting mode up once an hour when you're on the road... What's the big deal?

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Post by mr.syntrx » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:16 am

Depends where you live I guess. Around here I can't drive more than 15km without changing channels because the place is so damn hilly, whereas where I grew up on the Hay Plains in the state's west (some of the flattest ground in the world), I could do that with no trouble.

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Post by Mong » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:53 am

Well if you never leave the house, you wouldn't have that problem, would you? :baby:

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Post by Credicon » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:30 am

I'm an Astro guy, but I have started to get interested in DStar, if the price dropped and there were more DStar repeaters on the air (right now we're tied 1 for 1 with Astro and DStar repeaters) I would probably take a leap and get one to try.

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Post by WTF » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:50 am

P-25 may be cost prohibitive but D-Star is drop prohibitive.....Plus P-25 is inter-operable with public safety agencies....
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Post by Credicon » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:17 am

w2wtf wrote:P-25 may be cost prohibitive but D-Star is drop prohibitive.....Plus P-25 is inter-operable with public safety agencies....
The sad thing is P25 gear is actually cheaper than DStar gear if you look around.

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Post by escomm » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:53 am

w2wtf wrote:P-25 may be cost prohibitive but D-Star is drop prohibitive.....Plus P-25 is inter-operable with public safety agencies....
P-25 is no more interoperable than analog, D-Star, or my left nut.

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Post by motorola_otaku » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:45 pm

escomm wrote:
w2wtf wrote:P-25 may be cost prohibitive but D-Star is drop prohibitive.....Plus P-25 is inter-operable with public safety agencies....
P-25 is no more interoperable than analog, D-Star, or my left nut.
Far be it to stop you from pushing your agendas, but I'm pretty sure he was referring to the ability to use the same radio for both hammy and public safety P25 use. Which, of course, you can already do with analog, but still..

*ahem*

To answer the OP's question, D-STAR is a made-for-amateur mode with ready-made amateur gear and a bodacious suite of data capabilities. P25 is an established mode with a healthy established following and an abundance of cheap commercial-grade equipment that can legally be used on both amateur and commercial or public safety frequencies. But really, the deciding factor is local interest, which, in turn, is usually determined by the first person to take a step in either direction.
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Post by escomm » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:40 pm

motorola_otaku wrote:
escomm wrote:
w2wtf wrote:P-25 may be cost prohibitive but D-Star is drop prohibitive.....Plus P-25 is inter-operable with public safety agencies....
P-25 is no more interoperable than analog, D-Star, or my left nut.
Far be it to stop you from pushing your agendas, but I'm pretty sure he was referring to the ability to use the same radio for both hammy and public safety P25 use. Which, of course, you can already do with analog, but still..
Yeah, because the first thing on every public safety agency's list when they move to P25 is the ability of hams to make direct contact on non-ham frequencies.

Seriously, get real. Interoperability, in the common definition, is the ability of local, state and federal agencies to communicate with each other during times of emergency. Interoperability is NOT hams talking to PS agencies, or being able to use one radio for two purposes.

And STFU about pushing agendas. Someone said something that was wrong, I corrected it, end of story.

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Post by WTF » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:16 pm

escomm wrote:
Seriously, get real. Interoperability, in the common definition, is the ability of local, state and federal agencies to communicate with each other during times of emergency. Interoperability is NOT hams talking to PS agencies, or being able to use one radio for two purposes.
"Seriously, get real. Interoperability, in the common definition, is the ability of local, state and federal agencies to communicate with each other during times of emergency."
-They can't even do that on a good day, look at NO after Katrina.....


You seem to forget that a lot of us that are hams also are authorized users of various local and state PS radio systems and some are county RACES stations as well. I have on several occasions relayed urgent messages from other hams directly to county 911 via the radio......Not to mention it makes it a lot easier in a emergency when the local officials can monitor using the equipment they already have (i.e. during severe weather) and not having to buy one radio only made by one company that will have a very limited use....D-Star is about as proprietary as a product gets..... get everyone on the same page with the same modes even if its back to analog. Maybe we'll get lucky and Kenwood will make a p-25 ham rig......Plus after listening to d-star and p-25, IMHO p-25 sounds better....
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Post by escomm » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:17 pm

That's great and all, but hams don't define what "interoperability" is, and that's my point.

Next thing you know we'll be calling radios mounted to the rear decklids of a car and calling it trunking...... :baby:

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Post by punkasschump » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:57 am

escomm wrote:
w2wtf wrote:P-25 may be cost prohibitive but D-Star is drop prohibitive.....Plus P-25 is inter-operable with public safety agencies....
P-25 is no more interoperable than analog, D-Star, or my left nut.
Ok, lets see what happens when another disaster happens & public safety coms are down. They'll have enough time to just go out & buy D(eath) star radios to use an amateur digital infrastructure? yea right. NOT!! as far as interoperability w/ PS/Govt. is concerned, Analog is #1, P25 is #2 My balls are #3 & D(eath) star is #4.

zlassiter

Post by zlassiter » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:22 am

I think a spark gap transmiter would do better then your balls. Just my oppinion.

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Post by Mong » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:32 pm

punkasschump wrote:
escomm wrote:
w2wtf wrote:P-25 may be cost prohibitive but D-Star is drop prohibitive.....Plus P-25 is inter-operable with public safety agencies....
P-25 is no more interoperable than analog, D-Star, or my left nut.

Ok, lets see what happens when another disaster happens & public safety coms are down. They'll have enough time to just go out & buy D(eath) star radios to use an amateur digital infrastructure? yea right. NOT!! as far as interoperability w/ PS/Govt. is concerned, Analog is #1, P25 is #2 My balls are #3 & D(eath) star is #4.

Well if someone waited until "another disaster happens & public safety coms are down" to get gear, they fail in being prepared...


I was talking to a fellow last night about D-star VS the astor, and we agreed that of course astro sabers are cheaper & tougher than D-star stuff, but until he have a P25 infrastructure, well if we want to try it out, D-star it is.

As far as P-25 being inter-operable with public safety agencies, well that really means very little to most hams.... In my area, there are only two areas where public safety is using any UHF, the city and county law enforcement in my county and the one I work in. One of those is looking to jump on a regional 800mhz system, so the chances of any of them even using P25 on UHF are just about 1%...

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Post by SuperPretzel » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:32 pm

Yeah, I was gonna say... If I bought a P25 radio for UHF or VHF ham, fat lot of good it would do me if I tried to listen to public safety with it. There are a lot of 'em on P25 where I live, but they're all on 800MHz.

I like D-Star a lot for the integrated voice/data features. A remote linux shell over D-Star is hard to beat, geek-factor wise. Icom's D-Star radios really are pretty rugged for hammy radios, too. I'm wondering how much longer it will be before Yaesu realizes that D-Star isn't going to die (unlike Alinco's DV mode) and pumps out a digital version of one of their radios.

On the other hand, the audio quality on a late-DSP Motorola radio will blow D-Star out of the water. D-Star isn't as bad as DSP 6, but it sure ain't as good as DSP 8 or whatever the latest is now. That's what really disturbs me--Icom has never (to my knowledge) made any mention of actively making improvements to and releasing updates for their DSP code.

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Post by punkasschump » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:01 pm

Mong wrote: the chances of any of them even using P25 on UHF are just about 1%...
WTF Dude, Are you retarded???? FEMA, DHS, DEA, some FBI (depending on geographic location and MANY, MANY other federal agencies operate in UHF -- just below 70cm ham band. As far as VHF is concerned, WTF!!!! EVERY OTHER FEDERAL AGENCY is in VHF!!!!! ICE, USSS, FBI, and many other 3 & 4 letter agencies. All they would have to do is FPP a couple of freqs in to their portable or mobile to use a HAM quantar w/ crypto with no problem in the event of a catastophic commo failure!!!

duhhhhhhh

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Post by punkasschump » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:03 pm

motorola_otaku wrote:
escomm wrote:
w2wtf wrote:P-25 may be cost prohibitive but D-Star is drop prohibitive.....Plus P-25 is inter-operable with public safety agencies....
P-25 is no more interoperable than analog, D-Star, or my left nut.
Far be it to stop you from pushing your agendas, but I'm pretty sure he was referring to the ability to use the same radio for both hammy and public safety P25 use. Which, of course, you can already do with analog, but still..

*ahem*

To answer the OP's question, D-STAR is a made-for-amateur mode with ready-made amateur gear and a bodacious suite of data capabilities. P25 is an established mode with a healthy established following and an abundance of cheap commercial-grade equipment that can legally be used on both amateur and commercial or public safety frequencies. But really, the deciding factor is local interest, which, in turn, is usually determined by the first person to take a step in either direction.

Couldn't agree with you more!!!!!

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Post by punkasschump » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:11 pm

escomm wrote:Interoperability is NOT hams talking to PS agencies, or being able to use one radio for two purposes.
That's never been the reason for "interoperability"!!! it's the other way around!!! Feds & PS being able to talk on HAM systems if theirs goes down. They don't give a shit about talking to hams or giving hams the ability to talk to the Feds. they just want to be able to talk to each other!!!.......google FEMA+communications+backup+auxiliary+martial law+presididential executive order+presidential directive & see if you find anything about in the event of catastrophic communication failure the commendiering of amateur frequencies and communication infrastructure.

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Post by Mong » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:16 pm

punkasschump wrote:
Mong wrote: the chances of any of them even using P25 on UHF are just about 1%...
WTF Dude, Are you retarded???? FEMA, DHS, DEA, some FBI (depending on geographic location and MANY, MANY other federal agencies operate in UHF -- just below 70cm ham band. As far as VHF is concerned, WTF!!!! EVERY OTHER FEDERAL AGENCY is in VHF!!!!! ICE, USSS, FBI, and many other 3 & 4 letter agencies. All they would have to do is FPP a couple of freqs in to their portable or mobile to use a HAM quantar w/ crypto with no problem in the event of a catastophic commo failure!!!

duhhhhhhh


If you would have read everything I wrote in that area you quoted, you would see I was talking about my location, where there are very few UHF users at all.

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Post by punkasschump » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:58 pm

Mong wrote:
punkasschump wrote:
Mong wrote: the chances of any of them even using P25 on UHF are just about 1%...
WTF Dude, Are you retarded???? FEMA, DHS, DEA, some FBI (depending on geographic location and MANY, MANY other federal agencies operate in UHF -- just below 70cm ham band. As far as VHF is concerned, WTF!!!! EVERY OTHER FEDERAL AGENCY is in VHF!!!!! ICE, USSS, FBI, and many other 3 & 4 letter agencies. All they would have to do is FPP a couple of freqs in to their portable or mobile to use a HAM quantar w/ crypto with no problem in the event of a catastophic commo failure!!!

duhhhhhhh





If you would have read everything I wrote in that area you quoted, you would see I was talking about my location, where there are very few UHF users at all.

Ok, I'll agree w/ you there but we're not just talking about UHF here when it comes to interoperability w/ both digital & analog comms. Try making a D(eath) Star repeater do analog. it won't. If you want the backwards compatability with analog, buy a dstar repeater, an analog repeater & a combiner (if you want to use the same antenna & site) & put all that crap together & you'll have what 1 quantar will do by itself "Mixed Mode" ahhhhhh it's a beautiful thing!!! All the bells & whistles on a D(eath) Star radio won't be worth a squirt of piss w/o the internet & I guarantee the 1st thing to drop a deuce in a catastrophy is the internet. HF baby!!!

Ok, maybe I'm being too much of a dick about this -- I really don't mean to come off like a hairy bean bag about this but I get compassionate about P25........ :cheeseandwhine: -- to each his own -- this is my opinion on the matter. & up until 5pm on Oct. 2nd in the lords year 2007, it's still a free country to practice my 1st amendment rights as a U.S. citizen.................take it or leave it...........

later :ve4uo:

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Post by Mong » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:16 pm

Last I heard, the local D-star repeater owners have no intention of connecting to the "gateway". It will still support data on a local level, which is all we would want anyway.

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Post by punkasschump » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:29 pm

P25 will do the similar also -- Data on p25 is really cool!!!! Now that more than one of us have XTS5000's, we've been doing text messaging through the quantar. It's awesome!!!!

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Post by Mong » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:31 pm

I'm thinking more of laptop use, not sure I'd want to type away on a radio, texting on a phone is bad enough :baby:

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Post by motorola_otaku » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:12 pm

punkasschump wrote:WTF Dude, Are you retarded???? FEMA, DHS, DEA, some FBI (depending on geographic location and MANY, MANY other federal agencies operate in UHF -- just below 70cm ham band. As far as VHF is concerned, WTF!!!! EVERY OTHER FEDERAL AGENCY is in VHF!!!!! ICE, USSS, FBI, and many other 3 & 4 letter agencies. All they would have to do is FPP a couple of freqs in to their portable or mobile to use a HAM quantar w/ crypto with no problem in the event of a catastophic commo failure!!!

duhhhhhhh
I'd probably be the first person to step up in defense of P25 as a valid amateur mode (what exactly quantifies "valid" anyway?), but this line of thinking is.. well, it's just wrong.

The Feds have more redundancy built into their systems than even the most well-heeled Moto-tard could afford. I can assure you, use of an amateur-funded P25 repeater isn't even in their last-resort comms plan. If it got to that point, things would be so utterly fucked that playing radio would be the least of peoples' concern.

My original argument was that ham P25 use constitutes interoperability only in the following, very limited sense: local-level ham-licensed public safety users and first responders whose "work" systems happen to be non-trunked P25. Saying that it goes any further than that only buys into the Motorola/Homeland Security argument that P25 is that catch-all, end-all solution to allow agency ABC to communicate with agency XYZ, which anyone with half a brain knows is fundamentally wrong.

The bottom line is that P25, D-STAR, and analog all have their place along with packet and SSB on HF, and any ham purporting to participate in legitimate emergency communications should have the ability to communicate on all of those modes at some level. One of the fundamental tenets of amateur radio is that there is no single radio system or mode that works everywhere all the time for every situation, and that one fact is probably the biggest point of contention between government agencies and amateur EMCOMM groups. If the government agency has been sold the P25 interoperability bill of goods, the local ham group does themselves no good by insisting that their 2-meter repeater or their HF net or whatever is the sole solution when the P25 system takes a shit. But I digress.
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Post by FLECOM » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:18 pm

motorola_otaku wrote:The Feds have more redundancy built into their systems than even the most well-heeled Moto-tard could afford. I can assure you, use of an amateur-funded P25 repeater isn't even in their last-resort comms plan. If it got to that point, things would be so utterly fucked that playing radio would be the least of peoples' concern.
you would be suprised... ive seen some three letter agency installs and they are pretty scary... down there with some of the crappy :ham: repeater installs
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Post by slimbob » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:51 pm

mr.syntrx wrote:Seeing as Icom are aiming at wide area systems, I want to see a D-Star radio with voting scan. Getting used to it on public safety systems, then going to linked ham systems and having to change frequencies all the time gets old fast.
When you sit down and analyze D-Star against trunking radio, you realize exactly how much of a brain-dead abortion the protocol is. I don't understand why I can't just park the radio on one mode and let find the next D-Star repeater. This would be easy to implement, had they extended the protocol to support a control channel. But no, they didn't want to compete...

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Post by mr.syntrx » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:04 pm

escomm wrote:Next thing you know we'll be calling radios mounted to the rear decklids of a car and calling it trunking...... :baby:
my monitor needed some coffee :baby:
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Re: Re:

Post by mr.syntrx » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:05 pm

FLECOM wrote:
motorola_otaku wrote:The Feds have more redundancy built into their systems than even the most well-heeled Moto-tard could afford. I can assure you, use of an amateur-funded P25 repeater isn't even in their last-resort comms plan. If it got to that point, things would be so utterly fucked that playing radio would be the least of peoples' concern.
you would be suprised... ive seen some three letter agency installs and they are pretty scary... down there with some of the crappy :ham: repeater installs
I've never seen a government install that was even good, let alone non-scary.
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Post by KD8CPP » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:29 pm

motorola_otaku wrote:
punkasschump wrote:WTF Dude, Are you retarded???? FEMA, DHS, DEA, some FBI (depending on geographic location and MANY, MANY other federal agencies operate in UHF -- just below 70cm ham band. As far as VHF is concerned, WTF!!!! EVERY OTHER FEDERAL AGENCY is in VHF!!!!! ICE, USSS, FBI, and many other 3 & 4 letter agencies. All they would have to do is FPP a couple of freqs in to their portable or mobile to use a HAM quantar w/ crypto with no problem in the event of a catastophic commo failure!!!

duhhhhhhh
I'd probably be the first person to step up in defense of P25 as a valid amateur mode (what exactly quantifies "valid" anyway?), but this line of thinking is.. well, it's just wrong.
quote]

It is, I cant remember all the mode desiginators, but I've seen P25 as F1E and F2E, which are legal it the ham bands, I called Mr. Hollingsworth and asked him. :baby:
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