Encryption on P25

Forum for the promotion and understanding of digital voice on the amateur bands.

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Postby smokeybehr » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:51 pm

exkalibur wrote:
escomm wrote:fork over the $500 for an FCC commercial license and some frequency coordination and circlejerk yourselves on DES all day long....


I'd love to, but something tells me the FCC would tell us to FO and talk to Industry Canada :baby:


Bah. Just grab a couple of empty frequencies and go to town, like they do south of OUR border... :mjban:

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Postby motorola_otaku » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:14 pm

escomm wrote:..and circlejerk yourselves on DES all day long.

In the same manner in which you jack yourself off by propagating internet arguments? Because I think if I did that, my dick would fall off. :baby:

Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's because I hang out on the internet too much, but it seems to me like way too many people get way too fuckin' worked up over the technicalities and minutia of amateur radio, and in the process forget that the whole point of it is a.) talking to other people, and b.) having fun doing so. That goes not just for the encryption, P25 versus DSTAR, or Morse code arguments, but for all of it. Say you want to play in something esoteric, and it falls into a gray area under the rules.. why not just give it a whirl? You might be surprised to find that no one gives a shit unless you start stepping on their toes with it.

Now, as for use of DES or any other voice encryption variant.. I have a feeling that if you posed the question to Riley, his response would be something along the lines of his response to the wideband SSB users: get a commercial license.

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Postby escomm » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:40 pm

motorola_otaku wrote:
escomm wrote:..and circlejerk yourselves on DES all day long.

In the same manner in which you jack yourself off by propagating internet arguments?

I'd say it's more akin to you dressing up like a girl and shaving your legs and getting jollies from fat men hitting on you :o
Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's because I hang out on the internet too much, but it seems to me like way too many people get way too fuckin' worked up over the technicalities and minutia of amateur radio, and in the process forget that the whole point of it is a.) talking to other people, and b.) having fun doing so.

It's not a technicality or minutiae. It's right there in the fucking rules, clear as day.
That goes not just for the encryption, P25 versus DSTAR, or Morse code arguments, but for all of it. Say you want to play in something esoteric, and it falls into a gray area under the rules.. why not just give it a whirl? You might be surprised to find that no one gives a shit unless you start stepping on their toes with it.

Sure, if it falls into a gray area, but that's not the case here. It would be more productive if you produced examples that are relevant to the discussion, instead of being like many of the other people here and bring up completely unrelated bullshit to support your cause...

Now, as for use of DES or any other voice encryption variant.. I have a feeling that if you posed the question to Riley, his response would be something along the lines of his response to the wideband SSB users: get a commercial license.

I imagine he'd also point out that running crypto on ham freqs is a clear violation of part 97
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Postby n3jfw » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:49 pm

hey cockbags

on topic or shut the fuck up
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Postby Credicon » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:45 am

Heres how I see it with encryption...

In Ontario, there is only a handful of people who have an Astro digital capable radio, who are amateurs, most if not all of them already have encryption modules in their radios, and finally most of them also know someone with a key loader.


I have no problem talking to other people with Astro radios, I talk on VA3IMB all the time, but i know in certain areas, the only people with astro radios are myself and my friends with a shared set of keys, so if i use them its not to stop other hams with Astro radios, its to stop the FRS whackers with digital scanners, if a ham keys up unencrypted on a frequency I'm on, I have no problem talking to them unencrypted.

and lastly, don't go and say, OMG you have encryption in your radio, I have it in my radio, because it gets used on some commercial frequencies I'm licensed for.



Now on a side note, does this mean that TMS would be technically illegal because I don't have the means to decipher it, or know what radio ID the message is being sent to, so I can't even receive it...

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Postby escomm » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:26 am

n3jfw wrote:hey cockbags

on topic or shut the fuck up

OP asked about running crypto on ham

How has this gotten off topic?
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Postby exkalibur » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:41 am

Credicon wrote:Now on a side note, does this mean that TMS would be technically illegal because I don't have the means to decipher it, or know what radio ID the message is being sent to, so I can't even receive it...


Not unless the messages are encrypted. In Canada (and probably in the US), a cypher (in terms of ham radio anyway) means a code or method used to hide the meaning/contents of a communication. If TMS messages aren't encrypted, you're in the clear...pardon the pun. It's the same thing with using MDC to call alert someone on hammie bands. It isn't encrypted, so you're good to go. Just because someone else doesn't have the ability to receive them doesn't mean it's meant to be private.
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Postby VE6HBD » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:01 pm

Wow.. I never thought I'd see the day where I agree 100% with Escomm....

There is no need for encryption on the amateur bands, and the explainations put forth in this thread are pretty weak. Using encryption isn't some fancy new groundbreaking mode that will revolutionize the hobby. If you are that intent on people not listening in to your conversations, use a cell phone.

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Postby KC9UZB » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:23 pm

VE6HBD wrote:use a cell phone.


Meh. It's only encrypted in the air interface, once its on the backbone anyone can access it if they wanted to :baby:

(so I'm told).

Anyway - the way I look at it, if you used encryption on the ham bands here, some old fart would know and either report you to OFCOM (our FCC), or the NSA listening post at Menwith Hill could decode DES-XL in realtime anyway - so the powers that be know what we're saying.

That said, 99.99% of the scannerists and hammies round here don't know what P25 is, or if they did, even have the gear to decode it... so P25 is legal encryption as it is.
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Postby K2JLX » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:27 pm

M3ECM wrote:
That said, 99.99% of the scannerists and hammies round here don't know what P25 is, or if they did, even have the gear to decode it... so P25 is legal encryption as it is.


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Postby Credicon » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:04 pm

hows this...

at a local ham fest I was at, Myself and another ham who were communicating in digital, were approached by another ham with a radio with close call on it, and started harassing us because we were talking "encrypted" on the ham band, after telling him we were talking in digital, he proceeded to say if he can't hear it its encrypted, and that he reports people who disobey the law. so in a case like that who cares what we are using, because the OFs would still bitch about it, especially up here where Industry Canada can't even monitor digital transmissions, so as far as they are concerned, fi they can't hear it it's encrypted.

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Postby K8TEK » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:31 pm

Credicon wrote:hows this...

at a local ham fest I was at, Myself and another ham who were communicating in digital, were approached by another ham with a radio with close call on it, and started harassing us because we were talking "encrypted" on the ham band, after telling him we were talking in digital, he proceeded to say if he can't hear it its encrypted, and that he reports people who disobey the law. so in a case like that who cares what we are using, because the OFs would still bitch about it, especially up here where Industry Canada can't even monitor digital transmissions, so as far as they are concerned, fi they can't hear it it's encrypted.

Did you tell him to go fuck himself?
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Postby smokeybehr » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:02 pm

K8TEK wrote:
Credicon wrote:hows this...

at a local ham fest I was at, Myself and another ham who were communicating in digital, were approached by another ham with a radio with close call on it, and started harassing us because we were talking "encrypted" on the ham band, after telling him we were talking in digital, he proceeded to say if he can't hear it its encrypted, and that he reports people who disobey the law. so in a case like that who cares what we are using, because the OFs would still bitch about it, especially up here where Industry Canada can't even monitor digital transmissions, so as far as they are concerned, fi they can't hear it it's encrypted.

Did you tell him to go fuck himself?

Give him the finger, and ask him if he can hear that. Then tell him to to go and fuck off. Wankers. :tsgay:

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Postby KD6NIG » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:17 pm

I think the answer to this question is simple.

Apply the following rule:

In the spirit of Amateur Radio, can the conversation, in whatever format, be monitored simply by purchasing a radio (and modem, if a digital mode) and tuning to said frequency to hear said conversation?

If not (ie, you need to know the code to descramble, etc) then its not within the paramaters established by FCC rule (ie, we are self policing) and shouldn't be allowed.

Not that I want to hear everyones conversations, but if we truely want to be able to be self policing, we have to be able to be able to basically do that.

If I can't buy a D-Star radio, tune it to the output of the repeater, and hear the conversation then something is wrong. Same thing applies to any other mode. Including winlink, and other modes similar. If it takes more than 5 hoops to jump through to be able to police it, then its probably too complex to fall under the rules.

Besides, the simple fact should remain. BECAUSE of the fact that the FCC says we are self policing, ANY use of ham radio should be assumed to be in the public realm and monitorable at any time. If you have an issue with that and your answer to that is to do something to make it private, you shouldn't be using ham radio, you should be using a private service. You can make all the excuses in the book, but if you want private conversations, don't use an open and self policing service, and don't expect the FCC to bend it to be such a service.

Stuff to make it more flashy and cool I'll buy, but anything used to purposely obscure that can be done with a pay service....I don't agree with.

Course, this can be debated till we're blue in the face, but I ALWAYS assume that if I'm keying a PTT, sending an APRS packet, or anything like that, that someone is not only seeing it, they are listening......and taking notes!
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Postby n3jfw » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:01 pm

escomm wrote:
n3jfw wrote:hey cockbags

on topic or shut the fuck up

OP asked about running crypto on ham

How has this gotten off topic?


scroll up anus :bnypancake:
N3JFW 4:29 pm
(4:29:48 PM): so he's gay huh
(nameless ham) 4:30 pm
(4:30:02 PM): haha no, but he is a music major
N3JFW 4:30 pm
(4:30:15 PM): so he's still in the closet

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Postby mr.syntrx » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:59 pm

M3ECM wrote:
VE6HBD wrote:use a cell phone.


Meh. It's only encrypted in the air interface, once its on the backbone anyone can access it if they wanted to :baby:


Yep, and Ki is pretty easy to find out anyway.

This is the phone you want:
http://www.gdc4s.com/content/detail.cfm ... 832c4bb4c2

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Postby Tango_Sierra » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:56 pm

M3ECM wrote:
VE6HBD wrote:use a cell phone.


Meh. It's only encrypted in the air interface, once its on the backbone anyone can access it if they wanted to

And that's correct. Once the call hits the switch it gets put on to a trunk/DS-0 like any regular call and is free to monitor with the correct test equipment that allows you to isolate a DS-0 and produce the audio. I can basically bring up a screen, find an in-use trunk, and then route it to a specifically wired phone at a desk and hear the call just as one of the participants can. It is monitor only and I can legally do it.

Sectera would be nice if a civilian could get their hands on Type 1 equipment.

Anyhow, back to topic, my philosophy and what I use on my box is to use secure mode to pass any sensitive info like phone numbers, addresses sensitive freqs, etc and then switch back over to the clear and continue talking as if nothing happened. No one ever mentions encryption or to switch to an obviously named secure mode; once you're secure you say so though. This way you arouse less suspicion. For someone to prove that specific conversation was encrypted, and not a bad signal coming in to the repeater, would be pretty damned hard. If they're that talented I want them on my repeater! What we do doesn't hurt anyone so who gives a fuck ya know.

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Postby mr.syntrx » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:59 pm

Tango_Sierra wrote:Sectera would be nice if a civilian could get their hands on Type 1 equipment.


There are separate Type I and AES128 version of all the SECTERA gear.

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Postby KD8CPP » Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:07 pm

What is the standard encryption type everyone uses on IMBE? I wanna get a crypto board, and was just wondering.
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Postby n3jfw » Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:43 pm

des-xl/des-ofb

what radio tyler?


I might have one
N3JFW 4:29 pm
(4:29:48 PM): so he's gay huh
(nameless ham) 4:30 pm
(4:30:02 PM): haha no, but he is a music major
N3JFW 4:30 pm
(4:30:15 PM): so he's still in the closet

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Postby KD8CPP » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:00 am

Astro Saber
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Postby n3jfw » Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:47 pm

KD8CPP wrote:Astro Saber


hit me up on aim
N3JFW 4:29 pm
(4:29:48 PM): so he's gay huh
(nameless ham) 4:30 pm
(4:30:02 PM): haha no, but he is a music major
N3JFW 4:30 pm
(4:30:15 PM): so he's still in the closet

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Postby KD8CPP » Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:43 pm

10-4
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here we go

Postby roadkillinri » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:35 pm

another out there question that i will be fricaseed over


any opinions of using it on murs?
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Re: here we go

Postby smokeybehr » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:20 pm

roadkillinri wrote:another out there question that i will be fricaseed over


any opinions of using it on murs?


Nothing in the rules against it.
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Postby roadkillinri » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:45 pm

ok that was my take on the rules I just wanted some more opinions

thanks
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Re: Encryption on P25

Postby mr.syntrx » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:58 pm

KD8CPX wrote:I was curious if you're actually using it on the Ham band or otherwise. Because I thought it was illegal to use codes/cyphers on ham radio.


Depends what country you're in. In VK land it ain't :mjban:
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Re: Encryption on P25

Postby KC9UZB » Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:16 am

mr.syntrx wrote:Depends what country you're in. In VK land it ain't :mjban:


Bloody convicts! :D

Man... I never thought I'd hear myself say "I wish I lived in Oz".
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Re: Encryption on P25

Postby motorola_otaku » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:43 am

M3ECM wrote:
mr.syntrx wrote:Depends what country you're in. In VK land it ain't :mjban:


Bloody convicts! :D

Man... I never thought I'd hear myself say "I wish I lived in Oz".

I'd take .au over your Godforsaken island any day, but that's just me. :mjban:
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Re: Encryption on P25

Postby KC9UZB » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:01 am

motorola_otaku wrote:I'd take .au over your Godforsaken island any day, but that's just me. :mjban:


Don't knock it until you've tried it. The island is fine, its the people who live here are the problem mate ;)

I'd have said I never ever want to ever visit the Godforsaken United States, but that was before I decided to open my eyes and mind to the posibilities :D

(and the fact the UK is going down the tubes)
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Re: Encryption on P25

Postby motorola_otaku » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:16 am

M3ECM wrote:
motorola_otaku wrote:I'd take .au over your Godforsaken island any day, but that's just me. :mjban:


Don't knock it until you've tried it. The island is fine, its the people who live here are the problem mate ;)

I'd have said I never ever want to ever visit the Godforsaken United States, but that was before I decided to open my eyes and mind to the posibilities :D

(and the fact the UK is going down the tubes)

It's mainly the weather. Australia's is pretty close to home, yet yours is, well.. not for me. :ve4uo:
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Re: Encryption on P25

Postby KC9UZB » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:10 pm

motorola_otaku wrote:It's mainly the weather. Australia's is pretty close to home, yet yours is, well.. not for me. :ve4uo:


Australia's a big place ;)

I like our weather - it gives me plenty to talk about :ham: :ham: :ham:
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Re: Encryption on P25

Postby mr.syntrx » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:02 am

M3ECM wrote:
motorola_otaku wrote:It's mainly the weather. Australia's is pretty close to home, yet yours is, well.. not for me. :ve4uo:


Australia's a big place ;)


Yeah, we even have a missile range bigger than England :baby:
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Postby KC9UZB » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:26 am

LMAO.

Woomera ftw.

It makes Spadeadam look like someone's back yard, and thats the UK's biggest range/RAF installation :anus:
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Re: Encryption on P25

Postby MattSR » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:40 am

mr.syntrx wrote:
M3ECM wrote:
motorola_otaku wrote:It's mainly the weather. Australia's is pretty close to home, yet yours is, well.. not for me. :ve4uo:


Australia's a big place ;)


Yeah, we even have a missile range bigger than England :baby:


And its probably just as radioactive as the UK is too (Sellafield/Windscale disaster) :wacker: :wacker:


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