Encryption on P25

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Encryption on P25

Postby KD8CPX » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:29 pm

I see a lot of the people on here talk about using encryption on their P25/Astro radios.

I was curious if you're actually using it on the Ham band or otherwise. Because I thought it was illegal to use codes/cyphers on ham radio. Or is it just simply not regulated because its on P25 and people don't care?

I'm not trying to implicate anyone or anything like that, I just thought it was more strictly enforced is all.
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Postby Mong » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:35 pm

If I say I am using DES-XL code 12345678 is it really hidden? Just because someone don't have the gear does not make it bad. I can listen to a local D-star repeater and I can't understand a word they are saying with a "conventional" radio. Same goes for monitoring RTTY with a FM rig.....

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Postby KD8CPX » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:37 pm

I suppose thats true if you put it that way. Would the FCC see it that way though?
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Postby Mong » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:40 pm

Some might say using a "MDC Data burst to sound cool" would be using use codes/cyphers on ham radio? :baby:

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Postby Mong » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:41 pm

KD8CPX wrote:I suppose thats true if you put it that way. Would the FCC see it that way though?



You mean the same FCC that kisses the ass of whoever writes the biggest check? Yeah, sure thing :baby:

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Postby KD8CPX » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:44 pm

Yeah, but you don't have to have a specific code to decode an MDC Burst do you? I wasn't saying that its illegal to the point that people who don't have the equipment to encode/decode. I was saying because you have to specify a "key/passcode/password/etc" to decode wouldn't that be considered illegal?
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Postby Mong » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:46 pm

I'm not an internet lawyer, so I can't answer. You could always go in front of the FCC field office and transmit "secure" for awhile and check back in with us :baby:

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Postby KD8CPX » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:50 pm

I could but I'm not going to... :baby:

Don't have my P25 radio yet anyway. I was just curious to see what you guys thought. Didn't mean to step on anyones toes or anything.
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Postby KD8CPP » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:53 pm

(717) 338-2502
Riley Hollingsworth

Give him a call, he is actually a pretty nice guy.

Thats what I did when I got into a dispute over P25 (after I posted my first message about the legality)
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Postby 10-95 » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:44 am

KD8CPP wrote:(717) 338-2502
Riley Hollingsworth

Give him a call, he is actually a pretty nice guy.

Thats what I did when I got into a dispute over P25 (after I posted my first message about the legality)


Just curious, his response?? Did he provide a written follow up?

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Postby KD8CPP » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:10 am

He said he didn't know :baby: and sent it to the rules department. He said he will call me back sometime this week or next.
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Postby W1NAU » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:29 pm

Just think of the encryption key as a a really high PL/DPL code. You want to talk? Then buy the board and ask me for the code. Just like using any other system except you can't "scan" for the code.

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Postby ka8ypy » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:46 pm

W1NAU wrote:Just think of the encryption key as a a really high PL/DPL code. You want to talk? Then buy the board and ask me for the code. Just like using any other system except you can't "scan" for the code.


Yep, Same idea with hotrodding WiFi gear to run more power, or adding a 2.4 GHz amp with more than 2W output, now it is no longer a part 15 device but a part 97 device, and if you run WEP, WAP, etc and you post the code, then according to the FCC you are golden.
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Postby escomm » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:22 pm

W1NAU wrote:Just think of the encryption key as a a really high PL/DPL code. You want to talk? Then buy the board and ask me for the code. Just like using any other system except you can't "scan" for the code.

No.

Encryption is not permitted on the ham bands.

We have been over this time and time again. The horse is dead.

97.113(a) of 47 CFR is clear.
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Postby KC8RYW » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:20 am

OK, fine, let's just let every script kiddie in the neighborhood on our wifi network.

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Postby ka8ypy » Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:01 am

KC8RYW wrote:OK, fine, let's just let every script kiddie in the neighborhood on our wifi network.


See my remark about three posts up that pertains to HSMM (Amateur Radio WiFi)
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Postby escomm » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:17 pm

ka8ypy wrote:
KC8RYW wrote:OK, fine, let's just let every script kiddie in the neighborhood on our wifi network.


See my remark about three posts up that pertains to HSMM (Amateur Radio WiFi)

Do you have a cite to support that?
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Postby exkalibur » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:38 pm

escomm wrote:97.113(a) of 47 CFR is clear.


If you are going to use that regulation by the book, then using simplex to talk to your friend who lives a mile away every night is also illegal:

(5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be
furnished alternatively through other radio services.
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Postby ka8ypy » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:04 pm

escomm wrote:
ka8ypy wrote:
KC8RYW wrote:OK, fine, let's just let every script kiddie in the neighborhood on our wifi network.


See my remark about three posts up that pertains to HSMM (Amateur Radio WiFi)

Do you have a cite to support that?


Not an unresaonable request/question.

I saved one about this somewhere on my hard drive. Once I find it, I'll post it. Stay tuned.
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Postby grinthock » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:40 pm

I use encryption, ... So do many others here. Some of us use it on Ham Bands, some don't.

There... I answered the orig question.

Someone asked me once "But what if you get caught?"

The response someone standing near by said was

"Well, that might be difficult if i'm using a portable, and encryption, how are they going to know who I am?"
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Postby Credicon » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:28 pm

grinthock wrote:I use encryption, ... So do many others here. Some of us use it on Ham Bands, some don't.

There... I answered the orig question.

Someone asked me once "But what if you get caught?"

The response someone standing near by said was

"Well, that might be difficult if i'm using a portable, and encryption, how are they going to know who I am?"


On top of that, from what I've been told, Industry Canada doesn't even posses the technology to monitor digital communications, plus they are under funded and under staffed.

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Postby escomm » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:09 am

You gentlemen are some fine hamsexuals. You give a great name to the hooby.
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Postby grinthock » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:10 am

Oh and I have TX'd encrypted on amateur band... However.

Every 10 minutes I turn it off and state

"This is (insert call here) transmitting with IMBE using key 1234567890"

That makes it legal here.

Just because you can't listen doesn't make it encrypted. I can't understand CW to save my life, but that doesn't make it illegal for someone else to use it.
same goes for any other digital mode.

As long as I tell everyone what the key is -- it's no longer encrypted, it's digitally coded with an algorithim.
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Postby exkalibur » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:13 am

escomm wrote:You gentlemen are some fine hamsexuals. You give a great name to the hooby.


I hate to say it...but despite the legal issues around using encryption, it's good to see some people using advanced technology on ham radio, instead of being stuck in the "old days" with CW and that kind of thing. Isn't this how the hobby gets advancement? I don't know for certain but I'm sure there was a time when people thought using FM voice, or Packet or RTTY, etc.. was illegal - and they were probably right - these days they are perfectly acceptable both in terms of legality and "socially".
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Postby KC8RYW » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:27 am

Ah, yes. DES and DES-XL outside of P25. Two digital modes. Both of which sound like complete crap. :baby:

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Postby mr.syntrx » Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:29 am

KC8RYW wrote:OK, fine, let's just let every script kiddie in the neighborhood on our wifi network.


Just enforce IPSEC AH (without ESP etc) and be done with it. No obscured meaning per the rules, and your machines will drop any packet without a valid AH.

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Postby KC8RYW » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:14 pm

Rayjk110 wrote:I use DES-OFB on almost a daily basis. Sounds just like regular IMBE, too! I used to use XL, but it sounded so windy and grainy that I couldn't stand listening to it for too long.

What are you going on about? DES-XL over P25 suffers no noticeable loss in audio quality.

If it sounded grainy, you were in CVSD modulation.

:anus:

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Postby KC8RYW » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:03 pm

Rayjk110 wrote:No no, I'm talking about plain XL to XL, simplex. No IMBE involved. I generally only use OFB for IMBE stuff, altho I have not tried XL with IMBE.

Try it. You'll like it. :baby:

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Postby escomm » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:10 pm

exkalibur wrote:
escomm wrote:You gentlemen are some fine hamsexuals. You give a great name to the hooby.


I hate to say it...but despite the legal issues around using encryption, it's good to see some people using advanced technology on ham radio, instead of being stuck in the "old days" with CW and that kind of thing. Isn't this how the hobby gets advancement? I don't know for certain but I'm sure there was a time when people thought using FM voice, or Packet or RTTY, etc.. was illegal - and they were probably right - these days they are perfectly acceptable both in terms of legality and "socially".

This is horseshit. Breaking the rules is OK because people want to advance technology? That's a retarded argument, and a red herring.
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Postby Credicon » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:44 pm

escomm wrote:This is horseshit. Breaking the rules is OK because people want to advance technology? That's a retarded argument, and a red herring.



No... this is a Retarded Argument...
http://www.hindawi.com/GetArticle.aspx?doi=10.1155/2007/28430

and heres you're red herring
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Postby exkalibur » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:32 am

escomm wrote:This is horseshit. Breaking the rules is OK because people want to advance technology? That's a retarded argument, and a red herring.


So what about all the radio experimenters of days past that experimented with modes that were probably considered "illegal" either by law or otherwise? I remember reading back in the day when 9600bps packet was introduced back in the day, it was illegal to use speeds higher than 4800 but that was eventually changed.

I realize where you're coming from, but my point is that the hobby will never advance unless people are willing to experiment with new modes. I'm not saying that encryption is the best example of this, but it IS an example.
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Postby grinthock » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:29 am

Mike you are exactly right.

Any "Digital" encoding or modification of our signal, unless generally accepted by the community and unless there is either equipment available or a generalized specification, is technically "Obscuring the meaning of the message" and is a no no.

This may appear to stifle innovation, however in Amateur Radio there is always 2 things... There is the "Rules" and there is the "Spirit of the rules"

If you are encrypting to hide your transmission you are breaking the rules.

If you are experimenting with a new digital mode, designed by you, you are still within the "Spirit of the rules"
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Postby escomm » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:02 pm

grinthock wrote:Mike you are exactly right.

No, he isn't. In fact, he's ass backwards, just like you.
Any "Digital" encoding or modification of our signal, unless generally accepted by the community and unless there is either equipment available or a generalized specification, is technically "Obscuring the meaning of the message" and is a no no.

Wrong yet again. Digital transmission is an authorized emission type.
This may appear to stifle innovation, however in Amateur Radio there is always 2 things... There is the "Rules" and there is the "Spirit of the rules"

Wrong, again and again. The spirit of the rules is that you can't fucking hide what you are talking about or who you are talking to. How are you so dense?
If you are encrypting to hide your transmission you are breaking the rules.

Hiding your transmissions is a prima facie result of encrypting. So, if you are encrypting a voice transmission, you are breaking the rules. Simple as that. The written rule, and the SPIRIT of the rules
If you are experimenting with a new digital mode, designed by you, you are still within the "Spirit of the rules"

Can you show me anyone here at Hamsexy that has designed their own digital mode? No?

P25 was developed by APCO and DVSI. No ham operator made AES or DES either.

This is almost as easy as when FOY runs his mouth.... if you terds want to run crypto, no problem, fork over the $500 for an FCC commercial license and some frequency coordination and circlejerk yourselves on DES all day long....
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Postby exkalibur » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:17 pm

escomm wrote:fork over the $500 for an FCC commercial license and some frequency coordination and circlejerk yourselves on DES all day long....


I'd love to, but something tells me the FCC would tell us to FO and talk to Industry Canada :baby:
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Postby Mong » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:50 pm

exkalibur wrote:
I'd love to, but something tells me the FCC would tell us to FO and talk to Industry Canada :baby:




I bet they would cash the check first :baby:


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