Encryption on P25
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Encryption on P25
I see a lot of the people on here talk about using encryption on their P25/Astro radios.
I was curious if you're actually using it on the Ham band or otherwise. Because I thought it was illegal to use codes/cyphers on ham radio. Or is it just simply not regulated because its on P25 and people don't care?
I'm not trying to implicate anyone or anything like that, I just thought it was more strictly enforced is all.
I was curious if you're actually using it on the Ham band or otherwise. Because I thought it was illegal to use codes/cyphers on ham radio. Or is it just simply not regulated because its on P25 and people don't care?
I'm not trying to implicate anyone or anything like that, I just thought it was more strictly enforced is all.
Evan Hendrick | Student
Michigan Technological University
Michigan Technological University
Yeah, but you don't have to have a specific code to decode an MDC Burst do you? I wasn't saying that its illegal to the point that people who don't have the equipment to encode/decode. I was saying because you have to specify a "key/passcode/password/etc" to decode wouldn't that be considered illegal?
Evan Hendrick | Student
Michigan Technological University
Michigan Technological University
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Yep, Same idea with hotrodding WiFi gear to run more power, or adding a 2.4 GHz amp with more than 2W output, now it is no longer a part 15 device but a part 97 device, and if you run WEP, WAP, etc and you post the code, then according to the FCC you are golden.W1NAU wrote:Just think of the encryption key as a a really high PL/DPL code. You want to talk? Then buy the board and ask me for the code. Just like using any other system except you can't "scan" for the code.
I will always place the mission first.
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I will never accept defeat.
I will never quit.
I will never leave a fallen commrade
- escomm
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No.W1NAU wrote:Just think of the encryption key as a a really high PL/DPL code. You want to talk? Then buy the board and ask me for the code. Just like using any other system except you can't "scan" for the code.
Encryption is not permitted on the ham bands.
We have been over this time and time again. The horse is dead.
97.113(a) of 47 CFR is clear.
I'd hit it so hard you'd have to be to King of England to pull me out
If you are going to use that regulation by the book, then using simplex to talk to your friend who lives a mile away every night is also illegal:escomm wrote: 97.113(a) of 47 CFR is clear.
(5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be
furnished alternatively through other radio services.
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Not an unresaonable request/question.escomm wrote:Do you have a cite to support that?ka8ypy wrote:See my remark about three posts up that pertains to HSMM (Amateur Radio WiFi)KC8RYW wrote:OK, fine, let's just let every script kiddie in the neighborhood on our wifi network.
I saved one about this somewhere on my hard drive. Once I find it, I'll post it. Stay tuned.
I will always place the mission first.
I will never accept defeat.
I will never quit.
I will never leave a fallen commrade
I will never accept defeat.
I will never quit.
I will never leave a fallen commrade
I use encryption, ... So do many others here. Some of us use it on Ham Bands, some don't.
There... I answered the orig question.
Someone asked me once "But what if you get caught?"
The response someone standing near by said was
"Well, that might be difficult if i'm using a portable, and encryption, how are they going to know who I am?"
There... I answered the orig question.
Someone asked me once "But what if you get caught?"
The response someone standing near by said was
"Well, that might be difficult if i'm using a portable, and encryption, how are they going to know who I am?"
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Grinthock
Hamsexy Ontario Chapter
"Keep it real... Keep it... HamSexy!"
Grinthock
Hamsexy Ontario Chapter
"Keep it real... Keep it... HamSexy!"
On top of that, from what I've been told, Industry Canada doesn't even posses the technology to monitor digital communications, plus they are under funded and under staffed.grinthock wrote:I use encryption, ... So do many others here. Some of us use it on Ham Bands, some don't.
There... I answered the orig question.
Someone asked me once "But what if you get caught?"
The response someone standing near by said was
"Well, that might be difficult if i'm using a portable, and encryption, how are they going to know who I am?"
Oh and I have TX'd encrypted on amateur band... However.
Every 10 minutes I turn it off and state
"This is (insert call here) transmitting with IMBE using key 1234567890"
That makes it legal here.
Just because you can't listen doesn't make it encrypted. I can't understand CW to save my life, but that doesn't make it illegal for someone else to use it.
same goes for any other digital mode.
As long as I tell everyone what the key is -- it's no longer encrypted, it's digitally coded with an algorithim.
Every 10 minutes I turn it off and state
"This is (insert call here) transmitting with IMBE using key 1234567890"
That makes it legal here.
Just because you can't listen doesn't make it encrypted. I can't understand CW to save my life, but that doesn't make it illegal for someone else to use it.
same goes for any other digital mode.
As long as I tell everyone what the key is -- it's no longer encrypted, it's digitally coded with an algorithim.
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Grinthock
Hamsexy Ontario Chapter
"Keep it real... Keep it... HamSexy!"
Grinthock
Hamsexy Ontario Chapter
"Keep it real... Keep it... HamSexy!"
I hate to say it...but despite the legal issues around using encryption, it's good to see some people using advanced technology on ham radio, instead of being stuck in the "old days" with CW and that kind of thing. Isn't this how the hobby gets advancement? I don't know for certain but I'm sure there was a time when people thought using FM voice, or Packet or RTTY, etc.. was illegal - and they were probably right - these days they are perfectly acceptable both in terms of legality and "socially".escomm wrote:You gentlemen are some fine hamsexuals. You give a great name to the hooby.
[01:12] Seth: hey
[01:13] Seth: what do you use for a sore anus?
[01:14] exkalibur: more lube?
[01:13] Seth: what do you use for a sore anus?
[01:14] exkalibur: more lube?
What are you going on about? DES-XL over P25 suffers no noticeable loss in audio quality.Rayjk110 wrote:I use DES-OFB on almost a daily basis. Sounds just like regular IMBE, too! I used to use XL, but it sounded so windy and grainy that I couldn't stand listening to it for too long.
If it sounded grainy, you were in CVSD modulation.
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This is horseshit. Breaking the rules is OK because people want to advance technology? That's a retarded argument, and a red herring.exkalibur wrote:I hate to say it...but despite the legal issues around using encryption, it's good to see some people using advanced technology on ham radio, instead of being stuck in the "old days" with CW and that kind of thing. Isn't this how the hobby gets advancement? I don't know for certain but I'm sure there was a time when people thought using FM voice, or Packet or RTTY, etc.. was illegal - and they were probably right - these days they are perfectly acceptable both in terms of legality and "socially".escomm wrote:You gentlemen are some fine hamsexuals. You give a great name to the hooby.
I'd hit it so hard you'd have to be to King of England to pull me out
escomm wrote:This is horseshit. Breaking the rules is OK because people want to advance technology? That's a retarded argument, and a red herring.
No... this is a Retarded Argument...
http://www.hindawi.com/GetArticle.aspx? ... 2007/28430
and heres you're red herring
![Image](http://www.sgjh.btinternet.co.uk/Red_herring.jpg)
almost forgot....
Here's your sign...
So what about all the radio experimenters of days past that experimented with modes that were probably considered "illegal" either by law or otherwise? I remember reading back in the day when 9600bps packet was introduced back in the day, it was illegal to use speeds higher than 4800 but that was eventually changed.escomm wrote:This is horseshit. Breaking the rules is OK because people want to advance technology? That's a retarded argument, and a red herring.
I realize where you're coming from, but my point is that the hobby will never advance unless people are willing to experiment with new modes. I'm not saying that encryption is the best example of this, but it IS an example.
[01:12] Seth: hey
[01:13] Seth: what do you use for a sore anus?
[01:14] exkalibur: more lube?
[01:13] Seth: what do you use for a sore anus?
[01:14] exkalibur: more lube?
Mike you are exactly right.
Any "Digital" encoding or modification of our signal, unless generally accepted by the community and unless there is either equipment available or a generalized specification, is technically "Obscuring the meaning of the message" and is a no no.
This may appear to stifle innovation, however in Amateur Radio there is always 2 things... There is the "Rules" and there is the "Spirit of the rules"
If you are encrypting to hide your transmission you are breaking the rules.
If you are experimenting with a new digital mode, designed by you, you are still within the "Spirit of the rules"
Any "Digital" encoding or modification of our signal, unless generally accepted by the community and unless there is either equipment available or a generalized specification, is technically "Obscuring the meaning of the message" and is a no no.
This may appear to stifle innovation, however in Amateur Radio there is always 2 things... There is the "Rules" and there is the "Spirit of the rules"
If you are encrypting to hide your transmission you are breaking the rules.
If you are experimenting with a new digital mode, designed by you, you are still within the "Spirit of the rules"
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Grinthock
Hamsexy Ontario Chapter
"Keep it real... Keep it... HamSexy!"
Grinthock
Hamsexy Ontario Chapter
"Keep it real... Keep it... HamSexy!"
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No, he isn't. In fact, he's ass backwards, just like you.grinthock wrote:Mike you are exactly right.
Wrong yet again. Digital transmission is an authorized emission type.Any "Digital" encoding or modification of our signal, unless generally accepted by the community and unless there is either equipment available or a generalized specification, is technically "Obscuring the meaning of the message" and is a no no.
Wrong, again and again. The spirit of the rules is that you can't fucking hide what you are talking about or who you are talking to. How are you so dense?This may appear to stifle innovation, however in Amateur Radio there is always 2 things... There is the "Rules" and there is the "Spirit of the rules"
Hiding your transmissions is a prima facie result of encrypting. So, if you are encrypting a voice transmission, you are breaking the rules. Simple as that. The written rule, and the SPIRIT of the rulesIf you are encrypting to hide your transmission you are breaking the rules.
Can you show me anyone here at Hamsexy that has designed their own digital mode? No?If you are experimenting with a new digital mode, designed by you, you are still within the "Spirit of the rules"
P25 was developed by APCO and DVSI. No ham operator made AES or DES either.
This is almost as easy as when FOY runs his mouth.... if you terds want to run crypto, no problem, fork over the $500 for an FCC commercial license and some frequency coordination and circlejerk yourselves on DES all day long....
I'd hit it so hard you'd have to be to King of England to pull me out
I'd love to, but something tells me the FCC would tell us to FO and talk to Industry Canadaescomm wrote:fork over the $500 for an FCC commercial license and some frequency coordination and circlejerk yourselves on DES all day long....
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[01:12] Seth: hey
[01:13] Seth: what do you use for a sore anus?
[01:14] exkalibur: more lube?
[01:13] Seth: what do you use for a sore anus?
[01:14] exkalibur: more lube?